Does This Sound Like Love To You?

[beloved]

"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother; it is still Eve the temptress that we must be aware of in any woman. I fail to see what use women can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."
~St. Augustine of Hippo (354- 430 A.D.)~

"Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man." ~John Knox~

"Woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex, while production of woman comes from defect in the active force." ~Thomas Aquinas~

"It is an ascertained physioligical fact that the actual capacity of the average male brain is considerably greater than that of the female."
~M. Burrows, in an arguement against allowing women to attend college in England.~

"God maintained the order of each sex by dividing the business of life into two parts, and assigned the more necessary and beneficial aspects to the man and the less important, inferior matters to the woman."
~Early church father John Chrysostom (A.D. 347- 407)~

"A woman's intellect is normally more feeble and her curiosity greater than those of a man. Women should not govern the state or make war or enter the sacred ministry. Thus they can dispense with some of the more difficult branches of knowledge whcich deal with politics, the military arts, jurisprudence, philosophy and theology........ Their bodies as well as their minds are less strong and robust than those of men."
~Francois De Salignac De la Mothe- Fenelon, in "The Education of Females" published in the late 17th century~

"Woman has no call to the ballot box, but she has a sphere of her own, of amazing responsability and importance. She is the divinely appointed guardian of the home.. she should more fully realize her position. is the holiest, most responsible, and queenlike assigned to mortals; and dismiss all ambition for anything higher, as ther is nothing else here so high for mortals."
~Fundamentalist Leader John Milton Williams, In "Women's Sufferage" (1893), which used the Bibel to oppose the movement to give women the right to vote. ~

"We don't believe there's a place for women elders in the church. When the apostle Paul said that a woman should not "teach" or exercise authority over a man" (I. Tim. 2: 12), he did not follow that statement with a cultural argument. Rather he went all the way back to creation to show that women weren't intended to dominate men. The reasons he gave are that the woman was created after man, and that she was deceived when acting independently of his leadership."
~California Pastor and author John MacArthur, in a statement on women posted on his "Grace to You" website~

"Out of repect to the congregation, a woman should not herself read in the law. It is shameful for a woman to let her voice be heard amoung men. The voice of a woman is filthy nakedness."
~From the Jewish Talmud~

"Men should not sit and listen to a woman....... even if she says admirable things, or even saintly things, that is of little consequence, since they came for the mouth of a woman."
~Origen (A.D. 185- 254), The early church father~

"Women have no creative power, inventive genius or originality. Rather [they are] creatures of instinct and imitation, beautifully adapted to what nature intended."
~Anonymous British Doctor, in an 1869 Pamphlet opposing women medical students.~

"Nowhere was the power of divine healing ever given to be administered by any woman. Women have their rightful places, but when you put one in the pulpit it is unscriptural."
~Rev. Dallas Billingston of Akron Baptist temple, in his 1952 attack on Evangelist Kathryn Kuhlman~

The creational pattern of male headship requires that women not hold the formal position of the authoritive public teaching office in the church, that is, the office of pastor.
~1985! Statement of the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod~

I will debate these later with the word of God and good old common sense, which none of these men apparently had concerning women. What a shame that even in this century women are still struggling to be recognized with just as much value and equality as men.

[gardener]

The comments these men made were very unequal. I don't agree with any of these philosophies/comments. I look forward to see how you prove their thinking, utterly useless. Good thing they can't say sh!t like this NOW!! I'm sure if they did a lot of woman would have something to say. And they should.

Good research so far on the ignorance of man.

[beloved]

"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother; it is still Eve the temptress that we must be aware of in any woman. I fail to see what use women can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."
~St. Augustine of Hippo (354- 430 A.D.)~

Proverbs 31: 10
Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

God says a good woman's value is far above precious jewels to her husband. But to God, every human has value -good or bad; that is why He sent His Son.

Women are not the "temptress" altlhough there are some women who do try to tempt men, but some men also try to tempt women. But the whole evil temptress daughters of Eve is ridiculous because it was the devil that was the tempter in the garden of Eden, not Eve. Satan tempted Adam and Eve; Eve was deceived, Adam was not, God punished them both but held Adam more accountable than Eve because he was not deceived as she was, but willfully disobeyed. (See Genisis)

Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man." ~John Knox~

Genisis 1: 28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them (Adam and Eve), be fruitful and multiply, and replinish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genisis 2: 18
And the Lord God said, it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet (companion) for him.

I already went into detail about what women were made for in a previous thread on Sexual Discrimination..... So if you want details, look there. In short, Eve was made to be Adams companion and help him rule the earth. God gave them both equal authority over the earth. (See Genisis) Then they both went and gave that authority away to Satan. Thank God for Jesus who has given authority back to all believers through His name; both male and female.

"Woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex, while production of woman comes from defect in the active force." ~Thomas Aquinas~

Okay, this is not biblical in any way, shape or form. God made woman from man, so if she is defective then:

1. So is man
2. God was incompitent in creating her; which is impossible. God doesn't make junk.

Genesis 2: 21- 23
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And te rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

"It is an ascertained physioligical fact that the actual capacity of the average male brain is considerably greater than that of the female."
~M. Burrows, in an arguement against allowing women to attend college in England.~

"A woman's intellect is normally more feeble and her curiosity greater than those of a man. Women should not govern the state or make war or enter the sacred ministry. Thus they can dispense with some of the more difficult branches of knowledge which deal with politics, the military arts, jurisprudence, philosophy and theology........ Their bodies as well as their minds are less strong and robust than those of men."
~Francois De Salignac De la Mothe- Fenelon, in "The Education of Females" published in the late 17th century~

Those made me laugh. It reminds me of all the other ignorant assumptions about women like:

- women can't drive as well as men.

Actually, our car insurance rates are lower then males because we drive better.

- women can't do math.

Actually, women do equally well in mathematics.

- Women are horny sex temptresses/ women don't have as strong a sex drive as men/ aren't as visual as men.

Apparently men can't make up their minds about what a women's sexuality is like, but actually this has all been proven false. A person's sex drive, lust addiction is based on their own personal hormone levels, beliefs, and how often they think about sex. It varies from individual to individual, not from one gender to the other. There are men and women with low sex drives, and men and women with high sex drives. There are men who are lustful, there are women who are lustful; but we are all turned on by sight equally (and yes there is scientific proof for this, but I don't need proof because I am a woman who use to have a sex/ lust addiction. And not surprisingly I know more women who have, or who use to have, the same struggle with sexual sin as I did, then women who haven't; and I've known a lot of women over the years.)

The Bible doesn't say women are stupid and weak, instead it calls wisdom a female in Proverbs. And in Proverbs 31: 25 - 26 it says that the woman has wisdom and strength:

"Strength and honor are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness."

And in Proverbs 31: 17 it says, "She girds up her loins with strength, and strengthens her arms."

"God maintained the order of each sex by dividing the business of life into two parts, and assigned the more necessary and beneficial aspects to the man and the less important, inferior matters to the woman."
~Early church father John Chrysostom (A.D. 347- 407)~

Why does there need to be some "order" of which gender does what? Why not share responsibility and divide labor equally as each individual couple/ family negotiates? And how is raising a family less important than earning a paycheck for that family? Its not less important so how can it be considered an inferior job? I've worked in the workforce, at home, and have done both. I can tell you that being a homemaker and raising kids is by far more physically and emotionally taxing then most jobs outside the home. And men who have done the traditional "job" of women would agree with me. The most necessary and important job that can be done is molding, shaping, loving, nurturing our future leaders, teachers, ministers, laymen, and workforce. "The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world." That is quite literal. Society rises and falls because of what is going on at home in children's formative years. That is why it is important that the parents teach children godly morals.

The famous Proverbs 31 woman is more than a housewife and mother; she is a business woman, manages the finances of her home, makes her own business decisions, does hard labor in the field like a man and is deserving of praise like a man within the gates of the city:

Proverbs 31: 11 The heart of her husband does safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

Proverbs 31: 16 She considers a field, and buys it: with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.

Proverbs 31: 20 She stretches out her hand to the poor; yes, she reaches forth her hands to the needy.

Proverbs 31: 24 She makes fine linen, and sells it; and delivers girdles unto the merchant.

Proverbs 31: 31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

"Woman has no call to the ballot box, but she has a sphere of her own, of amazing responsability and importance. She is the divinely appointed guardian of the home.. she should more fully realize her position. is the holiest, most responsible, and queenlike assigned to mortals; and dismiss all ambition for anything higher, as there is nothing else here so high for mortals."
~Fundamentalist Leader John Milton Williams, In "Women's Sufferage" (1893), which used the Bibel to oppose the movement to give women the right to vote. ~

Seems as if these two men are at odds in the importance of a "woman's" role, but they both have one common purpose at heart: to keep women bound to the home even though the Proverbs 31 woman was more than a homemaker.

I would like to add here that I do personally believe that either the Mom or Dad need to be at home with their kids until they get in school. The reason being is that they are in their formative years and it is VITAL that they receive the love, nurturance, discipline, guidence, and godly life coaching in order for them to have a solid foundation of emotional, physical, and spiritual health. But this is my opinion and I understand that because of the cost of living in this country, this is not always possible.

Although it is true that men are more easily fitted to physical labor, women can do it as well. But women are just as fitted to any intellectual job as any man. And although it is true that women more often are the ones that desire to stay home and raise the kids, men are just as capable of doing so. The role does not matter, it the love that matters in a family which includes equal division of labor.

As far as not being smart enough to vote... it takes a really stupid person to suggest such a thing. I don't think he was wise enough to vote himself. Isn't it lovely how men wanted to deny women of the right to guide their own futures through the privilage of voting? But then again, some of them still want to deny us our God given right to determine our own futures as soon as we marry; making our husbands our gods. If you don't vote, you are putting your future in the hands of those that do. Make sure you make informed decisions on who you vote for.

"We don't believe there's a place for women elders in the church. When the apostle Paul said that a woman should not "teach" or exercise authority over a man" (I. Tim. 2: 12), he did not follow that statement with a cultural argument. Rather he went all the way back to creation to show that women weren't intended to dominate men. The reasons he gave are that the woman was created after man, and that she was deceived when acting independently of his leadership."
~California Pastor and author John MacArthur, in a statement on women posted on his "Grace to You" website~

First, I agree that women were not created to dominate man, and if that is wrong, then so is dominating women. However, teaching another person has nothing to do with domination. Control is domination. Requiring someone to do as you say is domination. Not allowing another to have and exercise their own God given, free will is domination.

Now, if this were translated correctly and interpretted correctly then why was there a female apostle in the early church that Paul approved of and worked with? Why was Deborah in the old Testement made a judge of both men and women? If it is a sin now, then it was a sin then. It cannot be approved of in one Testement and not the other. Deborah was made a judge and prophetess by God Himself. So obviously what has been taught out of Timothy is not correct. Otherwise God commited a sin by appointing a woman; which God does not sin.

This Preacher obviously hasn't read Romans either because in Chapter 16 Paul talks about several women in leadership positions in the church. Now many translations try to hide this fact by adding to scripture the words, MEN, changing females names to their masculine form, etc.

In Romans 16: 1- 2 Phoebe is actually a deaconess, yet in the KJV, she is made to look as if she is only a servent of the church.

In the amplified Bible this reads correctly: "Now I introduce and commend to you our sister Pheobe, a deaconess, of the church of Cenchreae, that you may receive her in the Lord......."

In verses 3-4 of Romans chapter 16 we learn of Prisca who Paul calls his "fellow worker" in Christ. This is another scripture that shows that a woman had an authoritive status in the church if she were a "fellow worker" which denotes a peer, not a subordinate in rank.

In verse 6 Mary who worked hard amoung the Romans.

In verse 7 Junia [female], not Junias [male] was referred to as an apostle. Not only do some translations of the Bible deny Junia as a women (when Junia was a common female name in the 1st century; akin to June), they also added in "men" in that verse an thus changed and deceived the church for centuries into believing that Junia was a man, because to admit she was a woman would mean that women do have equal opportunity in the church to teach and minister.

In verse 12 we find three women who worked hard in the Lord:
Tryphena, Tryphosa, and Persis.

Also, why is it okay for a women to raise boys and make and mold them into proper young men, but when those men are grown it becomes improper to still teach them? Does the woman loose her wisdom and godliness and teaching capabilities somewhere during her sons puberty years? That makes no sense.

If women are not allowed to teach/ preach, then why did Jesus call them to be disciples too? Discipleship is for the purpose of the people you are discipling to do what you do. Its not just teaching. Its teaching with the purpose of action.

Women were a part of Jesus' ministry team; as seen in Luke 8: 1-3, "The twelve were with Him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses; Mary who was called Magdaline, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who were contributing to their support out of their private means.

Jesus told both his male and female disciples to receive the Holy Spirit so they could have the power to preach the good news to all nations; not so men could preach to men, and women to women. (See Acts 1: 4- 5) When both the male and female disciples had recieved the empowerment of the Holy Ghost, Peter (under the power of the Holy Ghost) got up and spoke and quoted the old testement prophecy from the book of Joel: :Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy." (Acts 2: 17)

"If Christ commisioned solely men to the ministry of the gospel, why did He send the power for that mission upon both men and women?" J. Lee Grady

"Out of repect to the congregation, a woman should not herself read in the law. It is shameful for a woman to let her voice be heard amoung men. The voice of a woman is filthy nakedness."
~From the Jewish Talmud~

You cannot find this in the law of Moses. It is complete tradition, prejudice, pride, and ignorance of men.

"Men should not sit and listen to a woman....... even if she says admirable things, or even saintly things, that is of little consequence, since they came for the mouth of a woman."
~Origen (A.D. 185- 254), The early church father~

I will let Paul's own words answer this:

1. Corinthians 7: 36
Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

Proverbs 1: 20
Wisdom cries without; SHE utters her voice in the streets.

"Women have no creative power, inventive genius or originality. Rather [they are] creatures of instinct and imitation, beautifully adapted to what nature intended."
~Anonymous British Doctor, in an 1869 Pamphlet opposing women medical students.~

Well, I think all of the women in the workforce today have disproven this theory. It was ironic that he said such things during a time when women weren't allowed to do anything other than be mothers so how would he know what else women were capable of?

"Nowhere was the power of divine healing ever given to be administered by any woman. Women have their rightful places, but when you put one in the pulpit it is unscriptural."
~Rev. Dallas Billingston of Akron Baptist temple, in his 1952 attack on Evangelist Kathryn Kuhlman~

Apparently this guy didn't spend much time in the word, prayer, or worship or he would have known that what he was saying was not the heart of God. Jesus commanded ALL believers to, "Go into all the world and preach the good news." Jesus also gave ALL believers authority in His name to heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils.

The creational pattern of male headship requires that women not hold the formal position of the authoritive public teaching office in the church, that is, the office of pastor.
~1985! Statement of the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod~

You will just have to read my thread on sexual discrimination in the church and headship on this one. Translators added to, left out, changed and manipulated scriptures about women in the New Testement to say something they did not mean at all in order to fit their beliefs and cultural bias. And the proof that they were manipulated (other than original letters from Paul) is the rest of the Bible. God appointed women in authority over men in the old testement. Jesus gave women as well as men the great commission in the new testement. There were female home church pastors in the New Testement that Paul mentions and thanks for their service of ministry.

I know I am not alone in feeling that if my only purpose for being here is to mother children and be an inferior slave of my husband, I would rather not have been born. When I ask myself the big questions in life like, 'Why am I here?', I don't want the answer to be to be, 'You were put here to serve your master, live only for his desires, dreams and ambitions, bear his children, cook his food, obey him, and die.' How degrading, cruel and unloving. If that is what we were "created" for, we would ALL only desire that and be happy and fulfilled in that alone. But, we are so much more. We are equal partners/ peers, with equal status with God who is, "no respecter of persons". With God there is no male or female; just humankind. We were made by the same God, in His image and we have been given the same free will, authority and position with him. We are both "seated with Christ in heavenly places"; which denotes that both male and female have the same authority as Jesus since we share his throne as his gift. Sharing a throne means to share authority equally.

[godhelpme]

I didn't realize there were so many women even named in the Bible and I didn't know that there was a deaconess and female apostle! Wow! Awesome!

[beloved]

godhelpme said:

I didn't realize there were so many women even named in the Bible and I didn't know that there was a deaconess and female apostle! Wow! Awesome!

Most people don't realize there are so many women in the Bible- especially a deaconess and female apostle because translaters didn't want that known. It didn't fit their gender bias. It doesn't help that most preachers rarely, if ever, mention the women of the Bible. If they did it might get female (and male) minds re-thinking some things.

[gardener]

beloved said:

godhelpme said:

Most people don't realize there are so many women in the Bible- especially a deaconess and female apostle because translaters didn't want that known. It didn't fit their gender bias. It doesn't help that most preachers rarely, if ever, mention the women of the Bible. If they did it might get female (and male) minds re-thinking some things.

You do have a point there, I just wonder what would make a person flat out lie. There should be no hiding of God's works, its not for someone to decide what part of God's law, prohets, etc.. should be mentioned.

This isn't the first time I thought about this either. I remember looking at the Discovery channel one night, and they were talking about the lost books of the bible. Then I did a search and found this site, www.ecmarsh.com/crl/index.html . I really haven't read much of it, but I did read one about Mary. And I plan on reading somemore when I have time.

[lostlove]

My husband (not a Christian) definitely believes in double standards.

Men shouldn't have to worry about personal hygiene as much as women do. One bath a week will do for him. Tough if she finds it a turn off and repulsive! Thats' being " a real man".

It's a generation thing though. The younger man don't feel that way. It dates from the time when there were fewer men and many women desparate to get married!! Such men were well groomed to go out "courting" before marriage, but after marriage think it doesn't matter!!

Also he believes in double standards in sexual behaviour before marriage. Men can have numerous one-night-stands and loveless sexual encounters. Women must keep them selves pure. If they have "fallen " then they are "damaged goods" and worth less to their husbands than a pure bride would be.

(The Bible tells us, surely) that the standard is purity for both men and women, but if we fall, and confess, we are restored and forgiven, and the Holy spirit working in our lives helps us to live a life worthy of a child of God?)

A lot of men read in the Epistles about wives submiting to their husbands and it always causes hilarity, even at our Church Bible study- the men always laugh, although they KNOW that it's conditional! (See Ephesians 5 22-23)

[beloved]

lostlove said:

My husband (not a Christian) definitely believes in double standards.

Men shouldn't have to worry about personal hygiene as much as women do. One bath a week will do for him. Tough if she finds it a turn off and repulsive! Thats' being " a real man".

It's a generation thing though. The younger man don't feel that way. It dates from the time when there were fewer men and many women desparate to get married!! Such men were well groomed to go out "courting" before marriage, but after marriage think it doesn't matter!!

Also he believes in double standards in sexual behaviour before marriage. Men can have numerous one-night-stands and loveless sexual encounters. Women must keep them selves pure. If they have "fallen " then they are "damaged goods" and worth less to their husbands than a pure bride would be.

(The Bible tells us, surely) that the standard is purity for both men and women, but if we fall, and confess, we are restored and forgiven, and the Holy spirit working in our lives helps us to live a life worthy of a child of God?)

A lot of men read in the Epistles about wives submiting to their husbands and it always causes hilarity, even at our Church Bible study- the men always laugh, although they KNOW that it's conditional! (See Ephesians 5 22-23)

It's obvious that you recognise the double standard, now if you can get your husband to recognise it.

[beloved]

"In reality, the essential nature of the hardcore pornography business (racket) is to degrade (and, in many cases, brutalize) one group of human beings (almost always females) in order to appeal to the base and sick sexual desires in other humans (almost always males).

"In reality, hardcore pornography celebrates, inter alia, bestiality, bondage, 'domination' (humiliation and degradation), gangbangs, 'golden showers' (urine), incest, marital infidelity, rape, prostitution, 'rough sex' (e.g., strangulation and slapping), 'scat' (feces), 'school girls' (i.e., 18 year olds that look years younger), teen promiscuity, torture, and unsafe sex galore.

"In reality, the victims of this wretched business include the performers (many in their teens); the children and adults who become addicted to hardcore pornography; the spouses of hardcore pornography addicts; the children and adults who are sexually abused, sexually harassed and raped by hardcore pornography addicts; and the persons who contract a sexually transmitted disease (including AIDS) as result of the production or exhibition of hardcore pornography.

"In a 1964 obscenity case, Jacobellis v. Ohio, Chief Justice Earl Warren also wisely and correctly stated 'There is a right of the Nation and of the States to maintain a decent society.'

"As to what motivates many in Hollywood's 'creative community' to be so enamored with and protective of the world of hardcore pornography, three things would seem clear:

"First, many are themselves slaves of hardcore pornography. Second, many subscribe to the false notion that the First Amendment not only protects opinions, viewpoints, discussion and debate about obscenity (which it clearly was intended to protect) but also the obscenity itself. Third, many define their political and social allies more by what they hate than by what they approve of; and in Hollywood, as well as in the San Fernando Valley (the porn 'capital' of the nation), there is a disdain for Judeo-Christian moral and family values and those who adhere to them.

"'Hollywood' also cannot bear the thought that federal and state obscenity laws exist and are still being enforced, which undoubtedly explains why 'Skin,' according to various TV critics, portrays the fictitious hardcore pornographer as engaging in a business that is 'legal' (See, e.g., Noel Holston, "'Skin,' Titillates, Warts and All," New York Newsday, 10/20/03).

"But just as Hollywood's portrayal of hardcore pornographers is a myth, so is Hollywood's perception of the law of the land. In Miller v. California (1973), the Supreme Court stated:

'This much has been categorically settled by the Court, that obscene material is unprotected by the First Amendment…The dissenting Justices sound the alarm of repression. But, in our view, to equate the free and robust exchange of ideas and political debate with commercial exploitation of obscene material demeans the grand conception of the First Amendment and its high purposes in the historic struggle for freedom. It is a "misuse of the great guarantees of speech and free press."'

"On August 7, Mary Beth Buchanan, U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Pennsylvania, announced the first federal obscenity case involving a Los Angeles-based commercial distributor of allegedly obscene material in more than a decade. And it won't be the last."

MORALITY IN MEDIA is a nonprofit national interfaith organization, with headquarters in New York City, working through constitutional means to curb traffic in obscenity and to uphold standards of decency in the mainstream media. Morality in Media also operates the ObscenityCrimes.org Web site, where citizens can report possible violations of federal Internet obscenity laws to Federal prosecutors.